Why you Should be Hiring for Culture Add Instead of Culture Fit

Welcome to Hire Potential with Indeed, a series of fireside chats with experts in diversity and inclusion, employer branding, recruiting, HR and more.

• Prioritising the company’s internal Leadership Principles - do candidates exemplify them? 
• Ensuring diverse interview panels, from both a gender and role perspective 
• Providing opportunities for candidates to have a candid chat with a member of an AWS affinity group (such as Women of Amazon)

Hiring for cultural fit is a practice that has traditionally been seen as a good one. However, as we begin to understand the ramifications and nuance of this approach, it is increasingly clear that hiring for cultural-add is of equal, if not greater, importance than hiring for cultural-fit.

AWS attempts to interrupt the internal biases that lead many organisations to hiring homogenous groups of people: those who look, think and feel the same way. In hiring people for cultural fit, companies often miss out on creating diversity of thought.

Saliya aptly reminds us that diversity is being invited to the party and inclusion is being asked to dance. To get people on the dancefloor, she suggests establishing affinity groups, partnerships with external organisations and daily pulse checks with the team members, to ensure organisations always have a sense of how their people are feeling and how the organisation can better foster a sense of belonging and inclusion.

Listen Now

---

Prologue

Erin: Welcome to Hire Potential with Indeed. A welcoming workplace is built from the ground up with attention to diversity, inclusion, accessibility and openness. But the way many leaders and companies approach this is full of grey areas, uncertainty and quite often, fear. Hire Potential with Indeed is here to demystify the process through the most powerful channel possible, conversations, groundbreaking ones, too. 

I'm your host, Erin Waddell, strategic insights consultant and D&I evangelist in Australia for Indeed. I've worked in the recruitment industry in Australia for the last seven years and have been in Australia for 10 years. 

In this podcast series will tackle the issues we face in the modern workplace, from diversity and inclusion to remote working, accessibility, fair hiring practices and more. This podcast is an initiative of indeed.com, the world's number one job site with over 250 million unique visitors every month from over 60 different countries. 

Introduction

Erin: Before we dive in, I wish to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which we are meeting today, and to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islanders who may be listening. I pay my respects to their elders’ past, present and emerging.

In this week's episode, we'll be discussing why you should be hiring for culture add instead of culture fit. Company culture is key to helping us feel welcomed, respected, and included in the workplace. With most of us spending a third of our lives at work, it makes sense why we may want to hire employees with similar characteristics and values, because they're most likely to get along with existing and future team members. However, hiring for cultural fit can result in building a workplace that lacks diversity and inclusion, encourages bias, and even creates a culture of group thinking, where fresh, unique ideas are uncommon and even dismissed. To build a truly diverse and inclusive work environment, companies should start selecting candidates that not only fit the company culture, but have something to add to the organisation, as well. 

To discuss the benefits of hiring for culture add instead of culture fit and to share tips on how to start implementing this in your recruiting efforts today, we are joined by Saliya Katungu-Moran, who is the Diversity Recruiting Programs Regional Leader at Amazon Web Services. Welcome, Saliya.

Saliya: Thanks, Erin.

Erin: Would you be able to share a little bit with us about your role at AWS?

Saliya: Thanks so much for having me today. I currently run our diversity recruiting programs here at Amazon Web Services. Essentially, I'm responsible for partnering with our talent acquisition team to make sure that we're driving programs that support hiring diverse talent across the Asia Pacific, Japan and China region. Yeah, I've been with Amazon for six and a half plus years at this point, and spent all of that time in our talent acquisition team. Very familiar with recruiting and hiring, and what works for us here at Amazon in terms of hiring diverse talent?

How to implement a recruitment process that champions diversity and inclusion

Erin: That's great. You've been there a long time. you must have seen a lot of changes in that time, and probably helped to make some of those changes. It's great. Could you talk a bit about AWS' recruitment processes and how you implement processes that champion diversity and inclusion?

Saliya: Absolutely. Number one is our leadership principles. These are top of mind with most things that we do here at Amazon. It's a pretty comprehensive process that we go through, and the leadership principles are really the center of the process and how we assess candidates, as well. We're always looking for candidates that exemplify those leadership principles. It contains things like seeking diverse perspectives, leaders or write a lot and was looking around corners for new ways to invent on behalf of customers, as well. Leadership principles, number one, that's our bread and butter.

Number two, I think is really a focus around creating diverse interview panels. We've done a lot of work on this over the years to make sure that when candidates are interviewing with us, that they're meeting with a diverse set of Amazonians. Not only from a gender perspective, but also from a role diversity perspective. If you're interviewing with AWS, you'll often meet with four or five different stakeholders from all parts of the business and all parts of the world, who provide insight into what it's to work here and share more about how you'll be partnering with them. Number two, diverse panels.

Finally, a recent initiative that we've launched is an opportunity for candidates to have what we call a candid chat. This is a chat that's off the record. It's not part of their evaluation process right, then they get to meet with an affinity group member. One of our affinity groups like Women at Amazon or Glamazon, gay and Lesbian folks at Amazon and really have a candid chat about what's it really to work here at AWS. We found that it's been really fruitful for folks to get a sense of what our diversity and inclusion work is like, and what it's like here from a cultural perspective.

Erin: Now, AWS and Amazon, they're everywhere. I mean, it's a huge company, with offices in many locations around the world. When it comes to those efforts that you just described, do you follow a process that's more of a global process that's rolled out in all of the countries? Or do you get to tailor things to the market that you're in?

Saliya: We do always think big with initiatives that we're driving. That is one of our leadership principles, as well. Initiatives that are very often built with a global lens in mind. Part of my role actually being the APJC leader is to make sure that initiatives that we're driving are taking into consideration those cultural nuances. So that what we roll out in places Japan versus Australia will be very different. We do always think big, and we want to think about our customers in each of those geographical locations as well, to make sure we're building initiatives to the scale.

Erin: That's great. We have seen numerous studies that show that diverse teams are more efficient, innovative and productive, which can all result in increased revenue for the organisation. I think reduced attrition. Can you talk a little bit more about this?

Saliya: For sure, yeah. First, AWS, I think our approach to diverse teams, and the benefit that we see is really around our customers. And believing that by having diverse teams, we're better able to both represent our customers and innovate on behalf of them. Diversity of thought really enables innovation, that's another key. A leadership principle here at Amazon is to invent and simplify. By having diverse teams, we really believe that we can continue to innovate and look around corners on behalf of our customers. We've certainly seen the benefit of that, I think as we've progressed on our journey with diversity and inclusion. It always starts with the customer and we work backwards from that, in terms of the reason why we're building diverse teams.

Erin: How does that affect your employees internally?

Saliya: The benefits are really only positive from an employee point of view. Personally, I can speak from my own experience in terms of the diversity of individuals that I get to work with every day. We're like minded in the way we operate in that we've shown alignment to those leadership principles, but everybody brings something different. We have this concept of raising the bar with every person that we bring into the business. Each person is bringing something new or something that's value added to the team, which really means you're working with some really bright and passionate individuals. You're able to get some really cool stuff done.

Erin: Yeah, and it probably helps when it comes to the recruitment side of things to show that you're actually living the values, you're walking the walk, and not just talking the talk. I think that's a big deal, too. You did touch on something that I do want to ask about, which is the double-edged sword that I think is like mindedness. And that's really when it comes to cultural fit. I think there's a lot of employers that can get stuck in the rut of continuing to hire for cultural fit, instead of maybe taking a look at what else they could have. I think like mindedness is good. If it's like mindedness in terms of, we all want to be responsible for change and inclusion. It can be a dangerous thing, if you want everyone to look, talk, and act the same way. Why do you think employers continue to hire for cultural fit?

Saliya: My personal view on this is that it's probably easier to hire for cultural fit. I think studies have shown in terms of unconscious bias, where we tend to be biased to folks who are like us. Who are either similar to us, come from the same background, went to the same school, whatever it might be? My personal take on it is that it's probably just easier, and it's probably quicker. For us, when we think about raising the bar that I talked about, hiring bar raising talent, that can sometimes mean it takes us longer and it's a harder process to find the right candidates. By really thinking differently, and thinking, "Well, what is this person bringing to the team that we don't have today? Or how are they better than the current folks we have in the role today?" It really means that we're investing that time and effort in getting the right people in from the get go.

Erin: Unconscious bias plays a huge role in recruitment, whether recruiters know it or not. It plays a huge role in everyone's lives, whether they know it or not. We all have biases. It's how aware of them we can become. I think it's great to have unconscious bias training, but it also has to be on the person to dedicate a little bit of time to understanding that if they want to get rid of these biases, they have to do some work themselves. I think that this can play a factor. I think that this is a factor when it comes to hiring in a lot of instances. Why do we assume that candidates with similar qualities as our current team are more eligible?

Saliya: You're spot on with the unconscious bias piece. It's at play all the time when we don't even realise it. We actually run an internal training around this, where we really encourage people to think about being data driven, and being aware of those biases and how to interrupt them from the get go. Yeah, I honestly feel like the reason people are more aligned to folks who are similar to them is because of those biases that they might not even be aware of. I think if organisations can think of ways to interrupt those biases, so that the conversation really is objective and data driven, you're more likely to hire people who are culture add versus cultural fit.

Can companies be tactful in identifying areas within a company that could benefit from a culture add hire? 

Erin: Do you think it's possible to identify areas within a company where you could benefit from culture add? Do you think that that's a tactic some companies could take? Or do you think that that just has to come with whoever is being hired?

Saliya: Yeah, I do think it's a tactic companies could take on, for sure. The bar raiser mechanism that we have has been really successful in helping us do that. That really involves a third party. Being part of every interview panel, somebody who's not invested in the hiring process, who can provide that objective view of is this the right long-term decision for Amazon? Yeah, I've seen other organisations have iterations of that type of mechanism. I know, a couple of other businesses we work with have implemented similar things where it's a pretty concrete mechanism that can both interrupt bias and make sure that the discussion is data driven, and objective.

Erin: I think when it comes to inclusion, there's the flip side, which is exclusion as well. When hiring for cultural fit, is there a way that it can exclude, whereas hiring for a cultural add can include?

Saliya: Yeah, so I think if you're constantly hiring the same profiles, I think you're really missing out on bringing that diversity of thought that we talked about. The concept of always thinking of raising the bar and having that bar constantly increasing with new people coming in, whether it means that we're adding value from the get go and people are bringing new things into our teams. This actually reminds me of one of our most recent leadership principles that just got announced not too long ago around striving to be the earth's best employer. It actually contains a piece in there that talks about, we're really focused on hiring diverse teams and that we want to make Amazon a fun place to work, but also a place where people are able to bring their true selves to work and bring their diverse perspectives, as well.

Erin: That's a big step forward, I think, when it comes to announcing it and making it a public initiative, where people feel that they can connect to it. They have something to identify with, in terms of, if it's aligned with their mission and values. I think that's really probably motivating for a lot of potential employees and current employees who maybe they've wanted to see this change for a while, and maybe they've not spoken up or felt comfortable to be their authentic self. I think that that is a big thing. If it's coming from the top down, I think it's really powerful. If the senior leaders of the various teams or even the organisation are making it a priority for them, it's going to encourage people to fall in line in terms of feeling that they are able and capable to do that without feeling like they're the odd one out because they're sticking their hand up, or they're using their voice when no one else's. 

Tips on how to move from hiring for a cultural fit to hiring for a cultural add 

If you had any advice to give to organisations on how they can move from hiring for a cultural fit mentality to hiring for a cultural add mentality, we would love to hear them.

Saliya: Yeah, absolutely. I think I've touched on a few of these already. I really think having a concrete mechanism that means you're interrupting bias, and that you're able to provide a data driven way to say like, "How is this person bringing cultural add? How are they raising the bar for our business?" For us, that is very much around taking very descriptive notes and reviewing those notes as a group and coming to a consensus about whether this is the right long-term decision for Amazon. I think if organisations can establish similar mechanisms. It probably looks different for different businesses, but that focus on really keeping objective and then an opportunity to evaluate whether this is the right decision long term?

Erin: What resources or mechanisms are available to HR and hiring teams to make their own recruitment process more welcoming to diverse candidates?

Saliya: Yeah, great question, especially in the virtual nature in which we're living these days. We definitely make every effort to accommodate candidates. All candidates, not just candidates coming from a diverse background. A couple of things I would highlight around the virtual nature of interviewing. We definitely want to nurture a two-way conversation. Personally, I always take the opportunity to spend a few minutes with candidates explaining my journey, and a bit about myself before jumping into the questions so that they feel at ease and they get to know me a little bit more before jumping into the interview itself. We also want to provide that candid view of what it's like. I think the candid chats thing that I talked about right at the start, has also helped to really provide a welcoming experience. Some of the feedback we've seen from candidates on that has been awesome, the opportunity to speak with someone who's like me or comes from a similar background is really, really useful.

And then I think, also the opportunity to ask us questions. We're really open. We recognise that the interview is a two-way street, and we want candidates to figure out whether Amazon is the right place for them, as well. We always provide candidates with the opportunity to ask questions, and we're very open around what are our diversity and inclusion initiatives. How can they get involved and sharing more real-life anecdotes? I like to share with candidates. My journey in the six and a half years and some of the things that keep me at Amazon.

Erin: I would love to hear a little bit of your journey, and what keeps you at Amazon? Do you mind sharing?

Saliya: That's probably the question I get asked the most, to be honest. It does sound a little bit cliché, but for me, it is the people that I get to work with. I think that's a testament to the hiring process, and the focus that we placed on really making sure we get the right people in from the beginning. Yeah, the focus on delivering results, but also having fun while you're at it. I've had some really fun interactions over the years, travelled all over the world, met with various different people who are super inspirational. It really is the people for me, and I think that that is a testament to our hiring process.

Erin: I think that's huge. I think that the community in which you live, the community in which you work can make a huge difference to whether you're experienced at an organisation or in a location. It can be night and day. I feel that is a huge testament to AWS, if they are keeping employees engaged, active, I'll say happy. Happy is a subjective term when it comes to workplaces. If you're always learning, I think that that's what I picked up. Is that you're working with people who are making you feel you can be your authentic self, and that you're learning and you get to experience new things. If you have that in a workplace, even if you're doing a job day in and day out, at least you're happy with the job and the people. I think that's a huge benefit and a compliment to your employer. They're very lucky to have you.

How to create effective policies round inclusion in the hiring and onboarding process

When we go back to the culture fit conversation, what policies are in place to support this level of inclusion and company processes at AWS? How can organisations go about creating effective policies around inclusion, if they don't have them at the moment?

Saliya: I often describe diversity and inclusion when I present on this topic. Diversity is being invited to the party, but inclusion is being asked to dance. I think a few people may have heard that already. I think we make every effort to make sure that when candidates get here, AWS is an inclusive place to work. Some of the notable things, the affinity groups that I've already talked about play a huge part in making sure that it's an inclusive place. Different initiatives that will run, chances to meet via different coffee chat initiatives, Partnerships with external organisations, et cetera, is a big one. But then another one that we really place a lot of focus on is daily pulse check, where we actually survey employees every morning. There's just one question every morning that employees will answer that gives us a sense of how they are feeling. Are they feeling included? And on that sentiment tracker, we can see where their opportunities for development, as well.

Erin: You ask this every day?

Saliya: Yeah, every day. When I log on every morning, the first thing I see on my laptop is a poll, a daily poll that everyone will receive. It's just one question, one click, to get a sense on that inclusion sentiment tracker of, "How am I feeling? Do I feel included at work? Do I feel informed and trusted by my peers, et cetera?" That's been really fruitful for us to then off the back of that look at, "Okay, well, what initiatives do we need to drive? Where are there areas of opportunity for teams to help support inclusion, as well?"

Erin: That's fantastic. That's great, every day. I mean, obviously, you're working at an organisation that has the tools and the means to do that. But you know what? I feel even if you're a tiny company, even asking someone verbally, "How are you today? Or how do you feel about this?" There's so many ways you can do this creatively, without needing to be at a global internet company. Not just to make people feel, but to show people that you genuinely do care about how they're feeling, what their thoughts are. It's those little things where they feel they have a voice because you're giving them an opportunity to voice their opinions and their feelings. That's great. That is so nice. I think that that's wonderful. Wow. In addition to these questions that you're asking people, which is fantastic. It's a great way to generate data, as well. What are some of the other accommodations that AWS has, that you offer employees, both virtually and in the workplace?

Saliya: Yeah, so there's a number of different things I can speak to here. Back when we were in the office, we have things like prayer rooms, mothers’ rooms for new moms who are breastfeeding. We have different affinity groups around people with disabilities, that make sure that we're accommodating any employees who have disabilities, as well. I think one of the big things for me now that we're all virtual, is really this focus around building work life harmony. When we say work life harmony, it's really around how the two intertwine and ebb and flow as things go. We really place a focus on establishing that work life harmony with your manager, and agreeing what that looks like, because we appreciate that it looks different for everybody. My situation versus someone else in my team could be very different. I think our focus on delivering results and outcomes, versus being present or being on at a certain time, really means you can figure out what that work life harmony looks like for you and be flexible with your manager, as well.

Erin: That's great. I like that term, workplace or work life harmony. That's one I haven't heard, but I really like the way that that ties it all together. The final question, which is how we finish every episode of Hire Potential with Indeed, is, what will it ultimately take to ensure a better and more inclusive workplace in the future?

Saliya: Yeah, this is a really good one. I was reflecting on this earlier today. I think my two cents on this would be focusing on work that drives real change. My experience in this space is, there's often a lot of good work happening, but then a lot, a lot of things that don't actually end up eventuating to having impact or creating real change. In the context of inclusion in the workplace, I think that really means listening to employees about what they want, what they're looking for, and ensuring that we're catering to those needs, or that we're looking around corners for ways to better serve employees. The daily poll that I talked about earlier, that's just one thing that we've implemented that really does help to drive actual change. If we recognise that a certain team is not feeling included or something is not going too well, we'll act on that very quickly and put together program initiatives to help drive change. I think the focus on impactful work, and listening to employees. If we think of employees, almost customers, and then working backwards from their needs. I think that will really help to drive more inclusive workplaces in the future.

Erin: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I am sure you'll be going and doing amazing things at AWS, in the future, as well. Thanks again.

Saliya: Awesome. Thanks so much, Erin. It was great to chat with you today.

Conclusion 

Erin: Thank you for listening to Hire Potential with Indeed. Before you go and start building a better workplace, don't forget to hit subscribe, and leave a review if you found this podcast helpful. If you'd like to read our full D&I report, click the link in this episode's description to fill out the form. 

Just a quick note, the views and opinions expressed in this episode by the guests do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Indeed. Additionally, the information in this episode does not and is not intended to constitute legal advice. Instead, all content we discuss is for general informational purposes only and you should consult with a legal professional for any legal issues you may be experiencing.

The data in this podcast references Indeed’s 2021 D&I report. 

Sources: Indeed is the world's #1 job site according to Comscore, Total Visits, March 2021.

Sources: Over 250 million unique visitors every month, Google Analytics, Unique Visitors, February 2020.

Sources: The research in the report referenced in this episode was commissioned by ThatComms Co on behalf of Indeed and conducted by YouGov. The study was conducted online between 11 - 17 February 2021, involving 2,060 working age Australians (aged between 18-64) currently in either full or part-time employment, or actively looking for work