What Your Employees Really Think About Your DI&B Initiatives

Welcome to Hire Potential with Indeed, a series of fireside chats with experts in diversity and inclusion, employer branding, recruiting, HR and more.

Indeed’s Workplace Diversity and Inclusion Survey also showed that while 84% of working Australians recognise the importance of promoting diversity and inclusion in the workplace, 80% feeling proud to work for their employer and 60% say they work somewhere that employs a diverse workforce; almost one in ten say that since COVID-19 their workplaces have become worse at promoting diversity and inclusion. 

Furthermore, 62% of the working population admit to concealing parts of their identity when at work. 

Joining us to discuss this is Marcelle Harrison – Head of Diversity and Inclusion at Kmart Group, who leads inclusive workplace practice across Kmart, Target, and Catch.

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Prologue

Jay: Welcome to Hire Potential with Indeed. A welcoming workplace is built from the ground up with attention to diversity, inclusion, accessibility and openness. But the way many leaders and companies approach this is full of gray areas, uncertainty, and quite often fear. Hire Potential with Indeed is here to demystify the process through the most powerful channel possible, conversations, groundbreaking ones, too. 

I'm your host Jay Munro, Senior Country Marketing Manager of Australia at Indeed. And in this podcast series, we'll tackle the issues we face in the modern workplace, from diversity and inclusion, to remote working, accessibility, fair hiring practices, and more. This podcast is an initiative of Indeed.com, the world's number one job site according to Comscore with over 250 million unique visitors every month from over 60 different countries.

Introduction

Jay: Welcome to the first episode of Hire Potential with Indeed. Before we dive in, I wish to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which we're meeting. I pay my respects to the Elders past and present, and the Aboriginal Elders of other communities who may be here today. 

In this episode, we'll be discussing what your employees really think about your diversity, inclusion, and belonging initiatives. New extensive research by Indeed, has revealed a substantial disconnect between Australian workers’ perception of how minority groups are treated in the workplace, and the lived experience of these groups. Indeed's workplace diversity and inclusion survey also showed that while the majority of working Australians recognise the importance of promoting diversity and inclusion in the workplace, only 60% say that they actually work somewhere that employs a diverse workforce. In fact, almost 1 in 10 said that since COVID-19, their workplaces have become worse at promoting diversity and inclusion. Additionally, we found that more than half of the working population at 62% admit that they feel they need to conceal parts of who they are, so their identity or true selves while at work.

Here to discuss this with us today is Marcelle Harrison, Head of Diversity and Inclusion at Kmart Group who leads inclusive workplace practice across Kmart, Target, and Catch. Marcelle has experience across all areas of diversity and inclusion, accessibility, health and wellbeing, and ergonomics. She's also a registered occupational therapist. Welcome, Marcelle.

Marcelle: Thanks so much, Jay. Thanks for having me. I'd also just like to start off by acknowledging the Traditional Custodians of the land. Firstly, from Palau country that I grew up on, and also Yuggera and Turrbal country which I'm on today. And extend my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening to us today.

Jay: Thanks, Marcelle. Could we start off today by learning a little bit about your role as Head of Diversity and Inclusion at the Kmart Group?

Marcelle: Absolutely, you had already done such a great introduction. So, thank you for that. I work across Kmart, Target, and Catch, which encompasses our store networks, and also our corporate offices. Our diversity and inclusion strategy is part of our people and capability strategy. I actually sit within the people in capability function of the business. But it also extends to our better together strategy, which is our overarching sustainability strategy for the business as well, which really looks at planet and people. In the people space, it's largely around reflecting the communities in which we operate. I work very closely hand in hand, with our Head of Community, and then also the Head of Diversity and Inclusion as well, which is myself.

Jay: Okay, and we all know that community in the workplace is so important that contributes to that sense of belonging. There is a widely held perception, though, that minority groups are being treated equally in the workplace, but it doesn't necessarily reflect their true experience. What are your thoughts on that?

Marcelle: In my perspective, I think Australia and globally, there's a long way to go. There's definitely some opportunity. I wouldn't say that just exists in the workplace, I would say that exists far beyond just the workplace as well. I think if you spoke to most employers, most employers would feel that they offer equality within opportunity. I actually think it's a different question. I think it's a question about equity and not just equality, and whether equality and equity exist together. What I mean by that is, in terms of equity, it is around looking at people's backgrounds, experiences, and what their needs are for success. I think in terms of the programs of work that we're doing in the diversity and inclusion space, I think there's an opportunity to focus more around removing barriers entirely. I can give you an example if that's easier.

Jay: Yeah, that would be great.

Marcelle: Great. Sure, so from my perspective, I can see that there's a lot of advances in technology at the moment. A lot of our processes and our systems are moving to online platforms. If I give an example of equality and equity, those platforms are essentially available to everyone. If the digital accessibility isn't there, so for example, the platform doesn't work with assistive technology, for example, that's where inequity comes into play. I would also say that extends to flexibility as well. So having universal flexibility means that someone with specific cultural needs, or it might be that we know people with disability, one of the three workplace adjustments that are requested is flexibility. Having universal flexibility means that people can access that, again, creating that equity and equality, too.

Equality vs equity in the workplace

Jay: I think that whole concept of equality and equity is really difficult for a lot of people to understand. That's represented in the research that we did at Indeed, that people think diversity and inclusion just means treating everyone equally. Perhaps we have a job to do internally at organisations to educate all of our employees on what equity actually means, and why it's important. Do you have any tips on how to do that? It's a hard task to introduce new terms and get people to understand.

Marcelle: Absolutely, and I think it's an ongoing conversation. I think there's an opportunity to bring it up in those indirect conversations that you're having all the time. Like I said before, I think there's a wider perception that most people are afforded equality in their opportunity, we do treat everybody the same. I think it's actually starting that conversation, when someone says that is actually explaining what equity means there. I think it has that flow on effect, by starting those indirect conversations. I also think that the example that I gave before in terms of the way systems and processes work, is we're focusing on removing the barriers. So, it's an actual equitable system. It starts that process already for us as well.

Jay: Great, and I want to just highlight again, some of our research where we found that around 6 in 10, Australians or 62% feel like they need to hide part of who they are or their identity when they go into work. To begin with, before we delve a little bit into Kmart Group, what's your, I guess, impression of that?

Marcelle: I would absolutely believe that. I think it's probably even hiring that percentage that I think a lot of people -- Even if it's not, for their whole lives, I think there is a time at some point in everyone's life, or a lot of people's lives where that may come into play. And they feel that they have to hide part of their identity, whether it's long term or intermittently as well.

Jay: Yeah, and it's tough. I mean, from what we found, is a lot of people don't feel safe to, I guess, tell their peers or colleagues about their identity and their background. I'm curious because of the Kmart Group, you have a lot of employees in the public eye. How does that interplay with bringing your true self to work?

Marcelle: A lot of what we do in the diversity and inclusion space at Kmart Group, is creating cultural safety and safety in our stores in our environment. We do that through visibility and education. I think most people have probably walked into a Kmart at some point in their lives. You would say in a lot of our stores, we have our Ignite The Wonder artwork by Rachael Sarra, at the front of many of our stores, particularly in high Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander representation in communities. Again, it creates that visible safety and cultural safety when someone walks into our store, but also for our team members as well to feel openness about that. I would say that's just one example of many, but creating that openness, the visibility, that safety, it can really assist in terms of people feeling more open to bring their authentic selves to work as well.

Jay: I mean, it must be difficult. Is it your responsibility, or do you see it as your responsibility to also educate the public when they're coming into your stores?

Marcelle: Yes, I love this question because it's something we're really passionate about, and I think as a really large business we have a social responsibility, but also this footprint to really influence as well. I gave the example of our artwork previously, but in our Queensland stores, for example, when you walk into our store, on a decal, in the local language of the mob in that area, we have hello and goodbye. What happens, I noticed that even with my own daughter is that she's now using that language at school. We're sharing that indirect knowledge, and it's becoming more spreading community. When you think 1000s of people are walking through those front doors, it has a much larger flow on effect. I couldn't agree more. I think there's a really big opportunity for big businesses to be able to have that indirect influence in community and in society as well.

How can organisations promote their D&I policies to job seekers

Jay: I mean, it's not just for organisations with public facing roles, there's so many interactions with customer bases. I guess it does translate across different industries and types of organisations. Majority of working Australians feel that it's important organisations are promoting diversity and inclusion. It's becoming quite an important aspect of, I guess, determining which companies you'd like to work for. How would you recommend that organisations go about promoting their D&I policies to those job seekers?

Marcelle: Yeah. Look, I think this is probably, again, a much broader question in terms of just policy. It's around understanding the inclusiveness of the culture that's fostered within a workplace as well. I think that's really important. You spoke about it earlier, Jay, around feeling a sense of belonging. I'll talk specifically about Kmart. I've got a quite a big portfolio, in terms of where I work, but I'll speak about Kmart, here. We're very, very passionate about organically growing awareness, and we do employ quite a number of people. When our team members come into our store, and they're reflecting on the communities in which we operate, they're sharing that with their family, their friends, and it's organically growing. We're very passionate about that organic growth of awareness. I think, though, we spoke about, again, creating visibility and creating safety for people. We are in a position in retail that we have quite a public disposition in the sense that we do have people coming through our business all the time. I think seeing that our business is reflecting the community in which we operate has that impact.

I also think in terms of promoting and creating awareness around policy and what initiatives are being offered, I think there's an opportunity to leverage a lot of the communication platforms and tools that we use every day in terms of talent and talent attraction. Whether it might be websites, whether it's job advertisements, although it might seem small, even creating the visibility around an inclusion statement amongst job advertisements is really important. Like I said, on the website, even utilising social media to share stories. I think sharing stories is one of the most powerful ways of getting information out there, creating awareness, but also feeling like workplaces can be open and we're having these open conversations about inclusion as well.

Jay: Yeah, I completely agree, stories are so powerful. Over the last few years, I've certainly been seeing more companies include stories, and really outline how committed they are to diversity and inclusion by giving examples across the company profiles and pages on our site. I think you mentioned culture fit there. I think culture fit is a really interesting and important concept. We've been talking about it for years and years now of finding those people who “fit in”. Do you think that's potentially dangerous in terms of diversity and inclusion, and perhaps exclusionary to different populations?

Marcelle: I think what I had said, it was fostered an inclusive culture, which is where everyone feels comfortable to bring their selves to work. Because I agree, I do think when you talk about culture fit specifically, it can only be exclusive language rather than inclusive language and creating a sense of belonging for people that are coming into the workplace. Yeah, I fully agree there, Jay.

The impact of COVID-19 on D&I in the workplace

Jay: Yeah, it's unfortunate that it's still being talked about, but we'll see if that changes in the near future. Now, this year and last year has been pretty tough. Lots of changes, the whole world of work has changed. What are your thoughts on the impact that COVID-19 has had on diversity and inclusion in the workplace?

Marcelle: Yeah, it's one that's impacted everyone globally. It's something none of us had ever even thought that we would experience COVID-19. I know that's brought a lot of challenges and complexities to a lot of people's lives. I don't like using the word silver lining, but I do think there has been a little bit of silver lining in the impacts of COVID-19 for diversity and inclusion, because it really has brought flexibility to the front. A lot of workplaces have had to become more agile and more flexible, to accommodate the fluctuating restrictions and the needs that COVID-19 has brought. I know at Kmart Group flexibility was an evolving conversation, and something we're already going out with was our flexibility initiative and what we were looking at in terms of our flexible working program. What we saw with COVID-19, is that businesses just had to make change and make change quite quickly.

In terms of flexibility, and the acceptance of flexibility, Australia wide and globally, I think COVID-19 has really assisted in pushing that along. It's becoming quite an expectation for people to have the choice around how they flex and how they work, and employers needing to be accepting of that as well. It's really brought to the surface, and I'll bring back the word equity, again. But the inequities that exist in society, we saw Black Lives Matter really emerge. We had protests happening, we had people really vocal. I think this was really important over the past year, and has really, really assisted to emerge a lot of voices that weren't being heard before. I think again, it has been a catalyst for a lot of movement in the diversity and inclusion space, which I'm actually extremely grateful for because it has really helped leverage the practices that we're focusing on in inclusion, too.

Jay: It's really positive to hear that. We actually found that there's quite significant numbers of people in different disadvantaged groups or social groups who say, companies have gotten worse at promoting diversity and inclusion through COVID. What was really interesting to us, is that those who have a disability actually reported the opposite, that it's increased for them. I guess that does relate to what you were saying about flexibility. If we think about all the barriers of just getting to an office and being in an office environment. For those with different disabilities, there can be quite a few challenges, which are not necessarily having to deal with right now. You touched on the Black Lives Matter movement, and there have been so many other significant things that have gone on during this time as well. How are you trying to support staff with that? Is there an education piece as well, for those directly involved, but also those who are adjacent to it? Has there been, I guess, a need from employees to get that support?

Marcelle: Yeah, I think so. I know we have a broader cultural confidence training program at the Kmart Group. It's something that we were really focused on previous to the last 18 months, so to speak. There's a natural curiosity amongst people, not only from those who may feel directly impacted by this, but also from people around them. People they're working with, their colleagues, their families, their friends. We did actually bring in targeted education to really start to explore and dive deeper into some of the reasons behind why these movements were emerging, and to understand a little bit more about these. It's definitely something that we've been really conscious of and incorporating as part of our current and existing training programs, to educate our staff as well.

Jay: In terms of education and training, there would be different I guess, employees with different needs. What I mean by that is managers sometimes need a bit of help in how to manage or lead their teams, and vice versa. Some people reporting to managers or leaders who are from a different diverse background. Should training that's customised to different roles be something we consider? Is it important, do you think?

Marcelle: Yeah, I think so I think being a leader, you are often the first person that someone will speak to, particularly if you have that relationship there. Again, I will say it's evolving and it's growing, and not just specific to Kmart Group. I think this is, again, a global and Australian concept is they are looking for the tools and the resources to develop themselves to support their teams as well. I do think that there's an opportunity to really build the capability of leaders to feel comfortable having these conversations and being an enabler.

Jay: I want to jump back just a little bit as well to the findings that we had that people feel they can't be their true selves at work. I think there is some responsibility on their leaders in the workplace. How do you think we can address that issue? I mean, we can't put all the responsibility on their managers, but what can we do from an organisational perspective to maybe make them feel safer? Or help them to feel that they can trust their colleagues and their employer to be themselves?

Marcelle: Yeah, it's a good question. As diversity and inclusion practitioners, I think it's one that we're all striving to really understand and explore and dive deeper on this. Even in my own experience, Jay, as a single mother in my mid-20s, it was something I was really fearful about disclosing to my colleagues and to my employers. Because I felt that there may be assumptions made about my ability to progress my career, with everything going on. I remember, I think I used to even pretend a little bit that I had family around to support me at work, so it looked like I wasn't prioritising my family over work. But then outside of work, I also had the added pressure of telling the school parents that I had more support, so I didn't appear that I was prioritising work over my child. I think it impacts people in so many ways. The identity that you identify closely with can be so different for so many people. It really brings me back to my point that I spoke about earlier, is that we need to be looking at ways that actually break down the barriers for everyone because it can look different for so many people. We do that by removing some of the inequities that exist within our processes in our system.

Yes, there is absolutely opportunity to develop leadership capability. I fully agree, I think that there needs to be more education around that. I think this extends outside of the workplace. I think this extends out into the community into society into general practices that we have existing all around. I think the second part of that is looking at ways that we can remove some of the ways that we don't even think may impact people, but it is. I won't keep going on about this, but I gave the example of digital accessibility. Although we have platforms available to everyone, so effectively, everyone's being afforded the same access. But if it's not aligned or it doesn't work for some people, then that's where it arises. I think there's a two-prong answer to that.

Jay: Marcelle, you touched on briefly, your own experience there about being a working Mum. We all know that that's been, perhaps a stigma that's existed in the past and hopefully is changing now. With COVID-19, we used to see a clear distinction between work life, and life-life, our personal life, labelling it as work life balance. Working from home for a lot of people due to COVID-19 has meant there's a blurring of lines, because we're no longer having that hard stop of work before we go home. Instead we're, I guess pivoting in between work and life throughout the day. So, we've become accustomed to that. Do you think that with returning to workplaces, that's going to be a challenge that maybe we need to think about and address from a diversity and inclusion perspective?

Marcelle: In terms of flexibility, sitting part of diversity and inclusion, I actually think it's part of multiple functions. There's so many aspects to flexibility. I already feel that people are looking and they're expecting flexibility coming out of COVID-19. It is something employers need to focus on. It's something that's going to be really important for people. Having the choice of flex, is also going to be really important for people, too. So choice is nearly just as important. I know, Jay, you mentioned working from home and I think this needs to extend far beyond just working from home. Flexibility for a lot of people is not just working from home, there's so many aspects to flex and how people flex for them and how it's important to them. I think that also needs to come into the conversation and what other employers are exploring.

At Kmart Group, particularly in our corporate offices, which our corporate offices actually all located in Melbourne, who were in one of the strictest lockdowns globally. It has 100% been a consideration. We have our flex where, flex when, flex well ethos in our business. It has evolved through COVID. It has absolutely evolved and had to grow with what COVID has essentially done in society, and how we've needed to look at flexibility as well. At Kmart Group, I actually work in Brisbane. In terms of the flexibility that's afforded to me, it is something that our business is really focused on is how flexibility can work for people, and how it can work for the business and how that can assist you to succeed in a role. With my personal story, it is much more complex. I won't go into the detail, but they can see that flexibility is the enabler to be able to assist in performing.

What will it ultimately take to ensure a better and more inclusive workplace in the future

Jay: It's certainly a complex area, particularly with coming back out of COVID and this changing world of work. I do want to finish with our final question, which is how we finish every episode of Hire Potential with Indeed. What do you think it will ultimately take to ensure a better and more inclusive workplace in the future?

Marcelle: I think we can't underestimate the power and the ability that businesses have to influence inclusion. Again, at Kmart Group, we have been really committed to reflecting the communities in which we operate. So that is essentially our thoughts. Under our Better Together strategy, where I see there being a lot of importance on this is that we're increasing the visibility, the safety. We're sharing stories, as a business; we're having a voice in the subject of inclusion. It has a lot of power. I think employers can't underestimate the power that they have in expressing their voice as well. I think this is a really, really big one.

I know Kmart had set out to achieve parity with the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community by December 2020. We exceeded parity and are continuing to exceed parity this year, in terms of Aboriginal and Torres Strait people being employed with the Kmart Group. A few big factors of that is increasing visibility in our stores and increasing safety, too. I think the other part is, we need to listen to our people. People with lived experiences are the experts. I have a background in occupational therapy, in working with people with disability. What I can tell you is the people that I've worked with, the clients that I've worked with, they're experts in problem solving. Listening to the voice of people with lived experience is essentially how we will start to really build and build effective strategies in the space of inclusion as well. Without going on too long, Jay, but in Kmart, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in initiatives and practice that creates cultural safety for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. It needs to be reflected much further beyond the workplace, and I keep coming back to the same message. Workplaces are only one part of the bigger picture. It's also looking into society, into community, into the general systems and practices that operate in Australia today as well.

Jay: That's really insightful. It does definitely sound like the Kmart Group is making great strides in diversity and inclusion. I wanted to thank you, Marcelle, for joining us today. It's been a really great conversation and I appreciate it very much.

Marcelle: Thanks, Jay. I really appreciate it too. Thanks for having me.

Conclusion 

Jay: Thank you for listening to Hire Potential with Indeed. Before you go and start building a better workplace, don't forget to hit subscribe and leave a review if you found this podcast helpful. If you'd like to read our full D&I report, click the link in this episode's description and fill out the form.

Just a quick note, the information provided on this podcast does not and is not intended to constitute legal advice. Instead, all content we discuss is for general informational purposes only, and you should consult with a legal professional for any legal issues you may be experiencing.

The data in this podcast references Indeed’s 2021 D&I report. 

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Sources: Indeed is the world's #1 job site according to Comscore, Total Visits, March 2021.

Sources: Over 250 million unique visitors every month, Google Analytics, Unique Visitors, February 2020.

Sources: The research in the report referenced in this episode was commissioned by ThatComms Co on behalf of Indeed and conducted by YouGov. The study was conducted online between 11 - 17 February 2021, involving 2,060 working age Australians (aged between 18-64) currently in either full or part-time employment, or actively looking for work.