Supporting Access To Employment For People From A Refugee Or Asylum Seeking Background

Welcome to Hire Potential with Indeed, a series of fireside chats with experts in diversity and inclusion, employer branding, recruiting, HR and more.

Increased creativity and innovation from cognitive diversity ultimately leads to increased revenue but that employers cannot expect diversity practices to translate to the bottom line overnight. Often, we see creation of diverse workforces but without the creation of inclusive cultures, that effort is wasted. 

In this episode, Winitha explores the perils of homogeneity within workplaces not just for internal company culture but how it limits the companies’ ability to speak to a diverse customer base.

She brings practical suggestions to the fore to combat this problem. From questioning the necessity of certain qualifications, to thinking deeply about how skills are transferable and importantly, getting out into migrant communities to understand how to recruit from this untapped talent pool. 

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Erin: Welcome to Hire Potential with Indeed. A welcoming workplace is built from the ground up with attention to diversity, inclusion, accessibility and openness. But the way many leaders and companies approach this is full of gray areas, uncertainty and quite often, fear. Hire Potential with Indeed is here to demystify the process through the most powerful channel possible, conversations, groundbreaking ones, too. 

I'm your host, Erin Waddell, strategic insights consultant and D&I evangelist in Australia for Indeed. I've worked in the recruitment industry in Australia for the last seven years and have been in Australia for 10 years. 

In this podcast series will tackle the issues we face in the modern workplace, from diversity and inclusion to remote working, accessibility, fair hiring practices and more. This podcast is an initiative of indeed.com, the world's number one job site with over 250 million unique visitors every month from over 60 different countries. 

Introduction

Erin: Before we dive in, I wish to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which we are meeting today, and to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islanders who may be listening. I pay my respects to their elders’ past, present and emerging.

In this week's episode, we'll be discussing supporting access to employment for people from a refugee or asylum-seeking background. Employment plays a crucial role in helping refugees integrate into the Australian community and build a new life for themselves and their families. And with over 80% of refugees coming into Australia being of working age, it also provides organisations and businesses across the nation with an untapped talent pool. But unfortunately, refugees in Australia continue to face many challenges and barriers when trying to find a job.

A survey run by the Department of Social Services in 2017 found that after being in Australia for 2.5 years, only 25% of refugees had found a permanent role, with the majority working in a casual position. To create a truly inclusive work environment, it's crucial for organisations to put in the work to remove these barriers and ensure refugees and asylum seekers have the same job opportunities as everyone else. To discuss this, today, we are joined by Winitha Bonney. A thought leader in building inclusive cultures and an expert in advancing people of colour in leadership and entrepreneurship. Welcome, Winitha.

Winitha: Thank you for having me.

Erin: Could you share with us a little bit about your work?

Winitha: Yeah, I am an inclusion expert. I work with organisations to build a more inclusive culture, but also one that's anti fragile. Not a culture that's full of fear of saying or doing the wrong thing, but a culture that embraces hard conversations, tough conversations and challenges. Because as they start to walk through that and breathe through it and actually do the work, then that's the thing that's actually going to make them stronger as a result. My passion is really around working specifically with women and people of colour, to advance in leadership and entrepreneurship and to really create a sense of community and support, and empowerment around that, too.

Erin: I think that's a really important area of work that probably needs 7 to 300 Winithas out there, trying to make sure that this is top of mind. I think it's so great that there are people that are working to try to give women and people of colour, a wider platform and opportunities that are just not there for them. I wish that was an area of attention that more people were into at the moment.

Winitha: That's how this work started, because I had lived and worked in America and Toronto for a little while. Still there's a long way to go in those respective countries, but at least I was seeing other people that looked and sounded like me that had curly, frizzy hair. There are more initiatives and programs to support people up into leadership that were really nuanced to our needs and our lived experience. When I came back to Australia, I started looking around the rooms that I was, and back then I was working in an executive position. At exec level at a board level, I started noticing actually, for the first time that I was the only. I started reflecting on my experiences past and present about some of the things that I could do to actually move forward in my career. That's what really got the ball rolling around some of the initiatives and programs that I run specifically for women and people of colour because we really liked that here in Australia, and no one should Never go on this journey alone. That's specifically the main intention of this work.

Erin: I just want to throw a stat out there. I've been in Australia for 10 years myself, and I've experienced this in many, many instances. There was a study done by leanin.org and McKinsey of women at work, where they found that 20% of the time, a woman is often the only female in meetings or other situations at work and that increases to 40% for women in senior level positions. I'm sure you experienced this at the C suite level or executive level. I see it when I work with companies as well, where I'm often the only woman in the room too.

Winitha: Yes, yeah. And that report actually even speaks specifically to women of colour, that there are even less. There are some studies that have been done in the US and from an entrepreneurship perspective, women will get X amount of VC funding, women of colour get a very, very small, tiny fraction of what all women get. Lots of work, but I see it as an opportunity. So, opportunity for growth.

How a diverse workforce can result in increased revenue

Erin: Huge opportunity, both for women and people of colour, and companies who can have some really great talent moving up through the ranks or coming in, when they realise how important this issue is. I know we already talked a little bit about research, but there's a lot of research that shows that employing people from diverse minority backgrounds can help businesses in Australia better engage, connect, communicate with our customers and the wider community, which often results in increased revenue and decreased attrition. Could you talk a little bit more about this?

Winitha: Yeah, so I actually said this to a client earlier this week at a very large corporate organisation and it didn't really sound very professional, but it's the truth. And I said that just because for example, I define myself as a woman of colour, doesn't mean that I shoot rainbows out of my body. It doesn't mean that just because the label that are placed on myself or just because of my skin colour and who I am, my ethnic origins and my ancestral roots, doesn't mean that I'm going to come into an organisation and all of a sudden make you heaps of money and I'm going to save for the next 20 years. It's because of who I am, how I process information, and how I process the experiences in the world, socially, culturally, and professionally, as well. As a result of that, we see and look through the world in a different way.

In inclusion, we call that cognitive diversity. It's how we process information that actually breeds innovation. There's actually another piece of research that was done by Harvard that showed that there's actually cognitive diversity that leads to more innovation and creativity, which then leads to large sums of money from corporate organisations and things like that. It's not necessarily that if you put a whole bunch of people that have different lived experiences, that your company's automatically going to, for example make more money, when we talk about top line revenue, that employee engagement is going to increase and things like that.

What it means is that we can have a diverse workforce, but if we don't have an inclusive culture, a culture that nurtures our growth and creates space, because that's what all inclusion is. Inclusion is creating space for others to have space; then how can we do our best work? How can we bring our ideas to the table? How can we communicate how we are currently perceiving information or processing that information? Diversity in the workforce is just one piece of the puzzle. Unfortunately, what I see with a lot of clients is that they focus 80% of their efforts on creating a more diverse workforce. But at the end of the day, if you do not have an inclusive culture, then that effort is just quite simply wasted effort.

Erin: I think culture is such an important part of a company. It can make or break a company. Honestly, I really do feel like if you have a bad or a toxic culture, then how are you actually going to continue to operate when you're going to constantly have staff leaving? I think that that's huge. I think that that actually has to start even at the recruitment phase. I think it's one thing to talk the talk with an inclusion statement at the bottom of your job ad, but it's another thing to actually walk that walk or live those values, as I like to say. Where you're not just putting something out there is lip service, you're actually doing the things that you're saying you're setting out to do, and you're giving that space to the people that work for you in the areas that they need the space.

I think one thing that you said that I wanted to touch on was, if you don't have a diverse workforce, there's probably so many areas that you're completely unaware that you're missing out on from both a culture perspective, a product perspective and a service perspective. If you're all the same, then how are you going to speak to customers, job seekers and people internally that are not like you? I think it's so important to ensure that you are expanding your learning or expanding how you are viewing experiences, not just through your own eyes. I think that's a really important one.

Winitha: Yeah. We know, for example, in the states that people of colour will become the majority of the labour force by, some sources say 2032. And that women of colour specifically, some sources say 2044, I think. I feel like Australia is following a very similar trajectory in terms of our labour force, and what that actually looks like. Organisations, I think, would be very wise to actually look at this at a much more deeper level, and start asking some really hard questions around what they're doing to ensure that there is equity and equality for all. 

Why employers are still overlooking refugees during the hiring process

Erin: I'd say there also, there are a lot of barriers to the workforce for people from diverse backgrounds, especially people that are refugees who are coming to countries like Australia, like the US, like Canada, the United Kingdom, and Great Britain, to look for a better life from wherever they're coming from. I think that there are many benefits of employing people from diverse backgrounds, people from different countries who have a unique way of looking at things or a different way of operating. Especially, there's benefits of employing refugees. Why do you think some employers may still be overlooking refugees during the hiring process? What do you think they can do to combat this or change their mindset?

Winitha: Yeah, so I think what a lot of organisations and people are not talking about is the stigma associated with employing refugees. It's this general assumption that they're unqualified, that they may be unable to do their job in whatever capacity, unable to speak English, and therefore complete job tasks and things like that. For example, I've had almost 15 years’ experience working directly with the community, working with refugee and migrant communities. In some cases, that is the truth. Incredibly traumatised, unable to speak English, maybe very little to no formal qualifications, but extremely, extremely hard working. But for the majority of the population, they are very, very qualified. There are people that have PhDs, maybe multiple degrees and tertiary qualifications. Back home, they were a highly skilled accountant, doctor, but for whatever reasons those qualifications are not formally recognised here in Australia.

And then obviously, as you would know, with your own experience, particularly for someone coming from a completely different culture. With cultures, we have low context cultures and high context cultures. Australia, I would say is low. If you're coming from a high context culture, there's really, really dramatic differences. And to migrate here and live here, they're really, really steep learning curves. What I am hearing from the community is that they want to work, but they are struggling for those opportunities because those doors are often tightly closed. We need X amount of experience. We need these qualifications.

Some of the work that I do with my clients is actually challenging them around, "Well, do you actually need that master's? Or that bachelor in X, Y, Z? Does that need to come from an Australian based university? What are some other ways that an individual can demonstrate their experience? How about we look at transferable skills, as opposed to having 10, 15 years’ worth of experience?" Because just because a person may have experiences that's an asset that could actually be a deficit, because it could mean that they're completely locked into a certain way of thinking and operating and working. Whereas a person with different experiences, maybe from a different industry might look at that work with a new set of lens, which is all about cognitive diversity.

What I say to individuals is that they need to actually go meet the community where the community gathers. If you are sitting in your shrine tower expecting community to come to you, that in its essence is, to me as an expert, privilege and power. That's what that looks like. You need to be going out to the community, connecting with them, listening to their stories and their challenges. They will tell you a lot about what their job experiences have been like. And so, because of their struggles in finding employment here in Australia, for some individuals, that confidence has been chipped away. They might have been a doctor back home, but now they're doing a junior admin role and people just treat them like the lowest of the low. And so, their confidence has been eaten away. What they need really someone to provide them with an opportunity to open that door for them, not with the expectation that they would open that door for themselves.

There's lots of opportunities there. What I always tell organisations and clients that I work with, is that our job is not to attract them, our job is to end their attention and their trust. They have been in programs. They have been in initiatives where, well, winning organisations have wanted them to work with them, and then things have not worked out and they've been burned as a result. Or perhaps there's been an instant, because that organisation hasn't had or worked on creating a culture that's truly inclusive. Organisations need to know that if they really want to provide opportunities, particularly for refugees and migrants, their mindset, their intention, their ethos needs to be around ending their attention, not attracting them into their organisation. Because like I always say, with my work, ally ship is about serving, it's not about saving anyone.

Erin: 100%. In your opinion, what can a company do to ensure accessible and fair communication with refugee workers is still available even if English isn't their first language? Or maybe they speak English, but not to the same level as the majority of the employees?

Winitha: Yes, so definitely language is a really big one. If you see a job ad with 10 key selection criteria and then above that, perhaps it's, I don't know, maybe 20 descriptions about what they're looking for in a job, that's going to overwhelm you and that's going to put you off applying. Other things such as using jargon words, business jargon words, like people say, "Oh, this piece." I really think that's an interesting piece. I'm like, "Are you talking about a piece of cake? What are you talking about?" Making sure that the information and the language used is as simplified as possible. In community work, we would use the term plain English. Just using really plain English terminology, words, sentence structures, and keep the information really limited to what is the actual essence of the job.

The other thing is for people from high context cultures, so specifically people of colour, there's a really big culture around storytelling. Rather than saying X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah, blah. Rather than it being a boring job, ad, spice it up a little bit. Tell us a story around what that skill you're looking for looks like in practice. What's a great example of it? What's the opposite of it, that you're not looking for? Create a story around what that person might be doing. The other thing is video. Utilising video to share with people what the office looks like, who their manager might be. Perhaps that manager is saying, "Hey, I would love to work with you." Because as we know, 70% of communication is nonverbal. If I can see you, hear you, sense you, that's going to give me a higher level of trust that I will be okay. Because what refugees, migrants, people of colour are really concerned about is safety, psychological safety, right? That I'm going to be okay working in this organisation, in their culture, with their team, and things like that.

The other side of communication is really around distribution. How are you distributing your job ads? Are you putting it on different platforms? Or are you taking those job ads and putting it into the hands of the community? Once again, there's a difference between attraction and earning their attention and meeting them where they are, where they're at. That's a really important thing to do, as well. There are many organisations, multicultural organisations, refugee, migrant based organisations, they have a very large database. Take that job ad. Again, communication distribution channels. Send it out to those organisations and ask them to include that in their newsletters, however they communicate their clients or their members. There's things that we can do there as well, but I think video is a really underutilised tool that is actually quite powerful. The thing that I've seen work really well is when the actual manager, the person that you will be reporting to talks about the job and some of the job responsibilities and things like that. I think the main thing is to really get really creative. Utilise the story, and keep things as simple as possible because if you write things the same old, same old, you will attract the same old.

Erin: Yep, the visual side of things is so huge. There is a bank here in Australia that did a first, which was that they created a visual terms and conditions so that it wasn't so hard for people to see a gigantic wall of text about their terms and conditions. They made a comic style terms and conditions, which is incredibly helpful for anyone. But if you think about the way that you can use visuals and video to convey things, it just opens up so many more opportunities. It gives people such a better view of not only what the company, maybe the workspace looks like, but personality. What the company personality is like, too. I think there's a huge opportunity there.

Resources companies should offer their employees from a refugee background

Other than maybe videos, or some of those suggestions, you said, which are all great. Are there any other resources you can think of that a company should be offering to their refugee employees, and whose job should it be to lead this?

Winitha: It should always be with someone that has lived experience. I think one of the biggest mistakes I see is people not of those backgrounds leading that work, and making decisions on behalf of those communities. For example, I know that within my local community, the food bank, they're giving away food because of everything that's going on at the moment. Some members of the community even though they wanted the food, they would rather go starving rather than get food from the food bank because it's full of, and using their language and their terms is full of white people. There is a sense of an angst about it. That's a very complex area, and then a complex conversation in itself. But when there's another person or member of their community in that space, even if it's just one person, they feel a sense of ease, and importantly, a sense of safety and a sense of belonging as well, because they were so used to spaces not belonging for them and making them feel like they are excluded.

One of the things organisations definitely need to do is that they're providing them with people that have lived experience. If they're making decisions about initiatives and programs and things like that, it's coming from someone that has lived experience, but also diversity and exclusion expertise, as well. Just because you have lived experience doesn't mean you understand what best practice in diversity and inclusion actually looks like. I would recommend the two, and the two is a really fantastic formula.

The other thing that they need to provide more opportunities for refugees and migrants and people of colour is to think about those job recruitment channels. For example, at university, you'd have an open day. If you have a large number of roles or even five and upwards, I would recommend having an employment day. Perhaps you've networked with some of those organisations that serve those populations, the multicultural people and people from refugee, migrant backgrounds. They've then spoken to them connected with them and said, "Hey, this job opportunity has come up. This organisation is having a day, a welcome day. You can go in and you can see what it's like. If you're happy, then you can apply for the job." I would suggest for organisations to think a little bit outside the box about how they do recruitment.

You could have like your own version of an open day, where individuals from those specific communities get to come into the workplace, begin to physically walk around, if you have a physical office, meet other people in the workplace. Perhaps hear from another employee that has a similar background for them, and then they will be invited to apply for a job, but there will be people on hand to help them with the job application and also answer any questions that they have. Perhaps there might be other employees that come in and show them what it looks like to do that job or what it looks like to do that task, and what it feels like to do that specific job, as well. There's different things that we can do. Definitely, internships, work as well. Providing scholarships for people to study or to gain skills, is also really effective, but the number one tool. Because we can get people into roles, but if they're not moving up the ranks and obviously that's problematic, as well.

The other thing that's really effective and it's backed by research is mentoring and sponsorship, as well. If we created a program where people from those backgrounds can be mentored, but importantly be sponsored by someone within the organisation to move upwards and move in a way or direction that's meaningful to them, then that's a really effective way of engaging and retaining employees.

How to provide support to your employees from a refugee background without a large budget or resources 

Erin: Do you have any recommendations for companies that might not be large enough to have a dedicated person or people to do an open day? Maybe small to medium business.

Winitha: Getting started is really the hard thing. Once you get people in, word goes around the community pretty fast. Provided they have a safe and inclusive experience, they will let other people in the community know. It doesn't take a lot of money. It just takes elbow grease. It takes intention. It takes time and it takes effort. To get things done, anyone that's had an entrepreneurial background will know that you don't have to have large sums of money. There are plenty of people that bootstrap their way up to creating an amazing company. Anything can be done. Anything is possible. Everything that we have now, the housing structures, everything came from a single idea. Anything is possible. You just need to think outside the box and be incredibly resourceful. But the number one thing you will need to invest in is time, energy, and effort.

Erin: I fully agree with that sentiment of you don't need huge sums of money to accomplish great things. I think thinking outside the box is such an important thing when it comes to almost anything. You can accomplish almost anything that you want, if you can think creatively. Employing refugees allows us to bring our social consciousness to work and live it every day. Why do you think this is important?

Winitha: One life. One of the things I've been reading lately is, some of the listeners might have heard this and know this already is the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. Look, I've had several businesses. I've worked at an executive level. I've been a CEO of other people's businesses. I love business. I've been geeking out on it since I was 15 years old. It's my number one life, passion, if you want to call it that. At the end of the day, it's all about human connection. We've learned that through COVID. If you don't have human connection and are adding value to someone's life, then what's the point? What's the purpose of everything that we do?

Erin: It is all about human connection. At the end of the day, I genuinely think people forget that refugees are humans just like us who have family drama, just like we do. Who have a favorite TV show, who probably have gripes about certain things just like we do. It's just that they have a different background. I'm saying this as somebody who moved to this country 10 years ago. It's not an us and them thing. We're all in it together. As soon as we can move away from that, us and them mentality, it's just going to improve for everyone. The amount we can learn is going to be so much more than we ever knew we could.

Winitha: Yeah. I mean, refugees and migrants are not some alien population. They're just another demographic of our community that have had a different set of life experiences, perhaps because of war. They've had to leave their culture. They have had to leave their country. It's not by choice. It's not a privileged decision that they've made. They've come here to create a better life for themselves, for their families, and to also earn money to help those back home who perhaps really are struggling under those situations. It's just us.

One of the things I really like about remote base working, is it answers something in inclusion that we call location bias. When we create an organisation that employs people from different geographic areas, remote areas, rural areas, by taking away some of that power and privilege that we've placed on the job, saying that you need to live and be physically located in Melbourne. And that money then goes to those individuals living in those countries that helps them support maybe their family or extended family and economically, that area, that country has a better chance at prospering, as well.

Erin: You have such a wider talent pool if you are not looking for someone in a static location. I talk about this all the time. We have unfortunately come to the end of our chat, which I feel like we could have just kept going and going. The final question, which is how we finish every episode of Hire Potential with Indeed is, what do you think it will ultimately take to ensure a better and more inclusive workplace in the future?

Winitha: To do all things with kindness. I always say to organisations because everyone gets really, really--. I call it ants in the pants. It's like they got ants in the pants and they're fidgeting in my training sessions and things like that, because they're scared. Scared of doing and saying the right or wrong thing, even to me. I always say to individuals, that it's not about what's good and bad, what's right or wrong. It's about what is kind. With all things, do everything with kindness towards yourself, and towards others, regardless of history, circumstance, situation. Always ask yourself, what is the kind thing to say? What is the best thing to do?

Erin: No better advice, I don't think you could give. That was absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for being here, Winitha.

Winitha: No worries. Thank you so much for having me.

Conclusion 

Erin: Thank you for listening to Hire Potential with Indeed. Before you go and start building a better workplace, don't forget to hit subscribe, and leave a review if you found this podcast helpful. If you'd like to read our full D&I report, click the link in this episode's description to fill out the form. 

Just a quick note, the views and opinions expressed in this episode by the guests do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Indeed. Additionally, the information in this episode does not and is not intended to constitute legal advice. Instead, all content we discuss is for general informational purposes only and you should consult with a legal professional for any legal issues you may be experiencing.

The data in this podcast references Indeed’s 2021 D&I report. 

Sources: Indeed is the world's #1 job site according to Comscore, Total Visits, March 2021.

Sources: Over 250 million unique visitors every month, Google Analytics, Unique Visitors, February 2020.

Sources: The research in the report referenced in this episode was commissioned by ThatComms Co on behalf of Indeed and conducted by YouGov. The study was conducted online between 11 - 17 February 2021, involving 2,060 working age Australians (aged between 18-64) currently in either full or part-time employment, or actively looking for work